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i think there are a lot of basic nerds who don’t understand how space colonization is not an escapist fantasy, of fleeing a dying earth to inflict industrialism on another world, but a utopian vision of a stable earth that can field and support space assets. you’ll never get a working colony on another planet without a highly coordinated supply chain that originates on our very own fucking gaia

space colonization has a lot of its own ethical problems (such as, maybe forward contamination is just wrong) but any conception of it that characterizes it as an escape misunderstands the economic scale of the required efforts. you need firm footing to make decisive acts.

@garbados

Not to mention that the solutions for building and surviving outer space (making a barren, radiation-blasted hellscape liveable) has practical applications for restoring the planet's EXISTING AND LIVING ecology

@garbados Or you could have farms and factories in space. But difficult to do and would require technology beyond anything that exists currently. Also adapting to living permanently in space is a problem in itself. More likely is the supply chain from Earth that you mention.

@garbados Yeah, there is this idea of space exploration based on the European view of the Age of Exploration - set sail, find untold material riches ready for plucking, new places to live, etc.

And it doesn't really track unless you include some kind of unobtanium and/or impossibly cheap space tech. Either economically exploiting or inhabitating other celestial bodies are just too difficult to be a solution to problems - space exploration is a resource sink, not an untapped source.

@garbados I'm not going to even touch on the lies and unfortunate implications that come with the colonialism analogy. That is too big a can of wormholes.

@eldaking @garbados doing Polynesian colonization in space, not European colonization in space

@eldaking @garbados I think it's funny to watch billionaires run after space exploration not even realizing that once we can mine asteroids, we've entered post-scarcity and capitalism will evaporate

@rolenthedeep @garbados I'm not that optimistic.

I think it is just going to be their expensive pastime, never paying itself off, and at best we'll get some decent research as a side-effect.

Even if space exploration somehow gave us the means for post-scarcity, capitalism would prevail... unless we had already destroyed it, which we should do anyway.

@garbados The thing is, no matter how difficult something is to obtain on Earth, it probably can't be more difficult than bringing it back from outer space.

@garbados Except you know, science. Can get some really good science from space that can't get anywhere else.

@garbados If we are to be compassionate conscientious being we fantasize about becoming, humans must exodus the earth. We have evolved out of being part of the natural balance. We no longer belong on the earth. We have everything we need to begin colonizing near "space" (not other worlds). Initially, once space elevators or similar transportation to near space is built, the materials for construction would come from the earth, hopefully from dismantling cities.

@garbados and we have the capabilities to grow all our food in labs, without the need for livestock. The adjustments to life in space though will be too much for most...limited food choices (although not in quantity or nutrition) and the willingness to curb reproduction (Initially at least).

@garbados @noself This is confused and wrong. We are nature and cities are the most environmentally efficient system possible. The top 4% richest produce 49% Greenhouse gases. Cities now could be the most efficient way to live but they hoard and waste while we are stuck using old polluting tech cause we are too broke to shift over. Per person cities produce way less pollution than rural areas, there are just more people. Malthusianism is something pushed by the rich to shift blame off of themselves

@noself @anubis2814

guy who says “we will simply dismantle the cities where everyone lives in order to construct space elevators”: hehe, hubris much 😉

@garbados @anubis2814 Well that is a misquote of us. And the comment was directed at Anubis, not you or your original post and discussion, unless I am misunderstanding you? It was poking fun at Anubis and humanity in general...thinking they are nature, as if we were still an integral component to nature. In keeping with your original post, no utopia will be realized if humanity doesn't have a change of heart and mind. Without such a change, civilization n space would just b a change of location.

@garbados @anubis2814 To construct dwellings n space, as mentioned, initially, material would come from the earth (although it wouldn't, and shouldn't, be a permanent line of exploitation) I was just suggesting, for a humanity that has had a change of heart (utopia), material from cities that wld eventually b abandoned, would be preferable than digging up more earth. Toot limitations restrict lng drawn out explanations, one has to hope the owls can grasp that which is implied but not spoken.

@noself @anubis2814 i feel your argument that all humanity has somehow exceeded “nature” elides who is actually responsible for the evils of industrialism. it’s capitalists and colonizers, and that’s not all people. peoples around the world have carried out their planetary role as stewards for tens of thousands of years, and it’s a form of propaganda to suggest that industrialism has voided that role or that we have grown beyond it. we will never not be a part of nature.

@noself @anubis2814 i think it carries significant hubris to suggest the ways of peoples should be upended in order to facilitate a cosmic exodus, that people should be forced en masse into subsistence living aboard tin cans because that’s somehow the right thing to do. that was what i was lampooning. it struck me as bizarre to then accuse someone else of hubris, given your position.

@garbados @anubis2814 I don't see it as hubris but compassion. I am finding your position irrational though. You say we can never be part of nature, but you think we should remain and continue exploiting and destroying the earth? Would it be uncomfortable to move to space, initially yes. But humans are good at that, braving discomforts, dangers, and challenges for a better life, not only for ourselves, but for all life on earth. What could be more noble? But yes, this is all utopian thinking.

@garbados @anubis2814 I empathize with the need to blame. But blaming will not solve the problem. Only a change of hearts and minds will, and once that change has happened, one realizes the most compassionate thing we can do for the earth and all life on it (other than human) is for humans to leave the earth. As you say, we can never be part of nature anymore, so either we commit mass suicide, or exodus.

@noself @anubis2814

> as you say, we can never be a part of nature anymore

that is actually the opposite of what i said.

in fact i get the distinct impression you aren’t hearing me at all. “blaming will not solve the problem” is an incredible way to dodge any critical analysis of responsibility in order to uncritically repeat your point.

@garbados @anubis2814 oops my bad, I didn't see the "not" in there. I have no agenda. But I would for you and or Anubis to describe how we are and can ever be a healthy part of nature? Maybe I misunderstood the nature of your original post as well. Are you against relocating to space?

@noself @anubis2814 yes, i am against relocating to space. my original post is entirely about that point: relocation or exodus are dystopian fantasies sold by capitalist villains. the scale of the task, of fielding space assets, is simply too immense to do without earth, and committing forward contamination of other cosmic bodies is ethically suspect. the right move is to make things right here on earth, and not to pretend we can simply leave our sins behind.

@garbados @anubis2814 Sorry, I thought you were saying relocating to space wasn't escapist fantasy but utopian and missed your intent. I don't know what elons or the amazon guys intents are, but just because they are capitalist and maybe have exploitive reasons for wanting to get to space, is not proof that relocating to space isn't the most conscientious thing to do. But alas, it takes a change of consciousness and heart, and I am not holding my breath.

@garbados @anubis2814 We are libertarian socialist and write about how we can only find true liberty in an environment we don't exploit, a plurality of anarchist communities in space, who no longer feed on plants and animals or need to own property and land. We are free to pursue whatever we want or free not too even. But we are #ExodusEarth for conscientious reasons, not for exploitive reasons. Not all people who advocate relocating to space are evil villains.

@garbados @anubis2814 And we agree with your diagnosis of blame, as we are native american, it is intimate. But they are we. We are the problem. Anyways, it seems we have polarized, which was never our intention, only to share "our belief", we are the problem, and we believe proves we are no longer an asset to nature, and the only solution is exodus or mass suicide. In space, the only creatures we can exploit is ourselves.

@noself @anubis2814 i hope as you go that you will meditate upon this: that “we” are not a monolith, and exploitation is not our universal destiny. some people did this, and they and their systems can be held responsible. more colonialism is not the answer to the harms of colonialism.

@garbados @anubis2814 Thats the thing garbodos, all creatures and organism exploit. An exception might be made for plants, but even plants exploit organic matter when it is available. Some plants have even evolved to trap organic matter, even though, technically all they need is light, water, and minerals. Life exploits life to survive. To think deeply about this is contemplate how we can escape the chains of our natures. That is another aspect we write about.

@noself @anubis2814 capitalist exploitation is of an irreconcilably different degree than how wolves “exploit” deer, or how deer “exploit” plants, and eliding that difference is, again, a form of propaganda. colonialism wants you to believe the colonizer is immortal and inevitable and it just isn’t true. tens of thousands of years of stewardship attest: you have been lied to.

@anubis2814 @garbados nothing against cities, not sure where that came from, they are fine as long as we are committed to living on the earth. But living in space is way more environmentally caring, efficiency be damned, and conscientious to nature and the planet, which are still part of nature. We may be products of terrestrial nature, but we no longer have a purpose in nature. We consume and exploit nature beyond our natural place in nature. I love how both sides abuse the Malthusian argument.

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